OK - to be honest there's way too much to write about here. I love reading other people's opinions and I think it's important to encourage that...I've been on too many forums where, if you disagree with the vast majority or the general opinion, you're ridiculed for being that little bit different.

One of things I love most about this forum is that diversity of the people who post here. So - thankyou Ghosts-UK!!

I cannot stress enough how Aleister Crowley (I noticed it took a while for people to get the spelling right) was NOT a black magician.

Thelema (the name of his religion) is a Greek word, and it means "True Will". You've probably heard several charges of the Thelemic movement such as "Love is the law, love under will", and most notoriously "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law". People look at what it means on the surface and don't bother to find out that the "will" means true will, and that's your destiny. It's what you're supposed to do in this life, what you were sent here to do. And the "law" is the rule that states you must fulfill your true will. So "do what thou wilt..." actually means "fulfill your destiny and sod everything else".

Crowley considered ANY use of magic for personal use to be black magic, and he never, ever engaged in it. He did participate in sex magic though (which is supposed to be extremely powerful, but can be done by nearly anyone), and he did summon Goetic entities, but only to interrogate them for Spiritual truths.

He was kicked out of Italy for "killing children". In one of his more cryptic books he talks about killing 150 children a year, but this was actually a reference to masturbation (and the act of wasting, um, seed and not producing a child).

And without Crowley there'd be no Wiccan movement. Wicca is basically a bastardisation of Thelema and Gardner borrowed many of it's rituals and beliefs from the OTO (one of Crowley's magical orders) and then twisted them to form his own group. The Great Rite is nothing less than a watered down version of the Gnostic Mass (sex rite).

*exhales* I think I've said everything I needed to say on this subject (and to contribute to the "does magic exist" element of this thread, I've experienced some things during ritual which make me a 100% believer that humanity is more than capable of just eating, breathing, shagging and dying. But my success rate is so low I don't even bother with spells. I just read instead! Hence why I know all this useless crap about Crowley!).

Cool - thanks for joining the thread buffster. It certainly sounds like you've done your home work. I've read differing opinions on Crowley (and yeah - I had to spell his name right!! ) but I still don't like what he stood for. I don't believe he was a satanist or a black magician...but I do believe he was an egotist and, although he may have started out with pure intentions, over time he started to believe his own hype.

Have you read much of Gerald Suster's stuff?

Neph x

I haven't read any of Suster's stuff. I got most of my info from other biographical works.

I have to agree with you, he was an egotist, but to be honest most modern day Thelemites are too (especially in relation to their intelligence). I don't think he believed his own hype though. "The Great Beast" to which he referred to himself was an iconigraphical representation of human indulgence in sex and what others would call sin. He was the ultimate 60s free love radical long before the 60s And the whole "666" thing was actually a gematrix reference to the Hebrew letters of his name which added up to "666" and means something along to do with light. Meh, I forget now, but it was harmless. Anyway, he believed he was the Great Beast in the book of Revelations, not bringing about the end of days in the form of Armageddon, but bringing forth the Age of Horus and the end of a Christianity-led world. The Age of Isis was back when we worshipped matriachal deities and we embraced feminity (eg. with Priestesses). The Age of Osiris was when we worshipped a monotheistic male deity (ie: Christianity) and the Age of Horus would be when we worshipped the son of both Isis and Osiris. As I said before, Crowley believe it was his true will to bring forth this new age/new aeon (now you know where the term "new age" comes from!) and that's what he dedicated his life towards.
And you have to admit, the newest major religion to have been formed since Crowley's death, Wicca, has all the hallmarks of a religion born in the Age of Horus (since we worship both a Goddess and a God equally).

Oh wow. How dull am I?

Hi Buffster

Interesting... You certainly know your stuff thanks for sharing your understandings I always enjoy a good Crowley debate.....

The way I look at it is, I look at Crowley and his life and think Hmmmmmm did not work out very well he ended up hurting a lot of people.... He even questioned his whole life just before he passed away, which would tell me that its not for me, although I hold ancient Egypt as spiritually very important Isis is a very important deity to me..... Thelema is a new religion, My beliefs are based on ancient beliefs mainly Celtic lore but I have many other beliefs that I have mixed into my mixing bowl of beliefs...... Wicca and witchcraft ect would have been here whether Crowley existed or not, but he did play a part in bringing about the re awakening of the old religion how ever there where many others working to bring back to old ways to the world again too.... Gerald Gardner was one of the main people involved in bringing the old religion back into the modern world, although Gardner did changed a few things and re shaped it and called it Wicca he basically brought the old beliefs back onto modern society, even though it never really went away it was just pushed underground because of a public ignorance about paganism.

Crowley became very egotistical and self obsessed like someone already said and in many cases this happens to many of today’s thelema practitioners (again I dont believe this to be true of all)....

I have noticed that many people deeply involved with the geotian seem to gloss over Crowley as being a miss understood character (and maybe he was) but a lot of what he did is looked over by many people involved with Thelema.... Lets not forget why Crowley became who he did in the first place, he had a fundamentalist mother who forced him to go to church, stopped him from living a proper child hood, which caused him to resent his mother and her religion, he grew against the church and there for his path was started..... Crowley was not much different as a teenager than the many teenage Goths you see today, if you dig a little deeply into why they are Goths 9 times out of ten you find out there parents are Christian fundamentalists and have forced there beliefs on there children, so dressing up all demonic like is a perfect F*** you to there Christian parents.... Crowley was basically a example of the result of fundamentalism, I believe if Crowley was brought up by a better mother and was aloud a proper childhood he would never had taken the path he did...

I personally cant help but show a respect for Crowley to a degree, even though he stands for something I dont agree with I respect him for having the balls to do what he did and to actually go out there and do what he did fearlessly... I do believe that Crowley did do some good, like has all ready been said the 60s where influenced hugely by Crowley’s teachings, and I sometime wonder what would life be like if the 60s never happened?

I believe that our (will) will happen.... you dont have to try as hard as Crowley tried to make it happen.....

Now I feel uncomfortable talking about Crowley sometimes because I dont agree with what he stands for (even though im aware that he is partly responsible for bringing the new age about) and I know many people look up to him and I dont want to offend or anger people and im sorry if I have and I totally respect peoples right to believe in what they wish as long as it harms none BUT I have to raise the question ' what would the world be like if everyone lived like Crowley, and did what ever they felt like doing?' Id have to make the guess that the world would not be the nicest of places.

all the best
faeden

Crowley didn't expect everyone to go round doing whatever they wanted for the sake of it. That's more of a Satanist doctrine. He believed that you needed to find your life's goal and work towards the completion of that task. That's the extent of "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" as opposed to the common misunderstanding of it which is "do whatever you want and to hell with the consequences".

The problem with people's perceptions on Crowley is that it's still tainted by the media slander war that occurred right up until his death. There's no denying he acted improperly with his polyamorous relationships and the way he liked to portray himself but he's not as evil as people would think.

One of the major disputed issues in neo-Paganism is where Gardner got his ideas. He claimed they were passed on to him by a secret coven of witches, who's existence has yet to be proven. What we do know is that he was heavily involved with both the Golden Dawn and the Ordo Templis Orientis, which was one of Crowley's thelemic orders. And we also know he heavily borrowed elements from both orders which can still be found to this day in Wicca. And of course many of these "old ways" in Wicca can't be corroborated as being "old". I consider myself to be Wiccan but I don't fool myself by believing it to be an ancient religion that was supressed and hidden centuries ago (although I used to) but I accept it on face value for what it is: a new religion formed in the 50s which just happens to be a very potent magical system and a religious doctrine that I feel very comfortable believing in.

Hi Buffster

You only have to look at the history of paganism too see that Wicca is based strongly on the old religion of the ancients.... Yes Wicca one of many pagan paths was started in the 50s BUT the beliefs of Wicca are based solely on ancient beliefs (that stand out a mile) you only have to look into what the ancients believed in to see this.... Modern historians can only get some of what the ancients believed in because much of the knowledge was destroyed over time, so no one actually knows 100% all of what the old religion was.... Wicca is just a modern word for a path that’s strongly influenced on the old ways, not one single old way mind but of just the whole bulk of what has been learnt so far about the old paths of paganism. Wicca is from the old word 'Wicce' that means to bend or shape energy to direct change..... Much of the modern pagans believe are shaped on ancient ways (but) inevitably there are going to be some modern changes and parts that are put in to fill in the gaps from what we dont know about the ancients beliefs.


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I know just what the media are like, its best not to trust anything the media say BUT the media dont lie 100% of the time... most of what the media said about Crowley, Crowley actually did as he even admitted it and wrote about it.


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Well that’s why I dont hold Crowley as someone I wish to base my spiritual beliefs on..... is just being a little bit evil OK ?

I started out as a Wiccan and have learned about many different pagan paths scince and also have a very strong spiritualist belief.... I dont really like labels my self but if I had to call my self something I would say Pagan with a touch of spiritualist.


Wicca in my view is a re-awakening of the old paths, it might be a newish path but its based on old beliefs. Wicca was a word chosen by Gardner to make witchcraft more swallowable to society that all ready had a sinister view of witchcraft and the old ways.

all the best
faeden

I don't disagree on the "what" of Wicca (ie: our beliefs) but the "how" (how we worship, what rites we use). We definitely didn't get those from the "old ways" and those are the newer elements lifted from the GD and the OTO.

The media painted a very dark picture of Crowley both for the sensationalism (which boosted circulation figures) and the fact he was branded a traitor for writing for a German propaganda magazine during WW1. However the case was that he was actually employed by British secret services to make the pro-German propaganda so absurd it would help force Americans out of their apathy and into the war (which it did).

Incidentally while I'm mentioning world wars, Churchill's "V" for victory sign was Crowley's idea (although the doing a "V" with your fingers is an ancient Typhonian gesture way older than Crowley). He submitted it to the Naval Intelligence Division so the British would have an effective magical counter-defense against the power of the inverted swastika (NID reports confirm that this was the case, which is surprising as I never expected the British Government to be so superstitious!).

As for him being evil, there's no real proof he did anything evil, unless you know something I don't (in which case you need to share the info ).

Buffster xx (who is Pagan with strong Wiccan and Spiritualist beliefs).

Hi again

Thanks for some interesting info there on the victory sign ill remember than one

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Well im going on what Crowley him self believed in and said.... you say theirs no real proof but people dont get reputations for nothing…. The media named him the wickedest man alive.. now that was obviously not true but Crowley did take no end of drugs and encouraged his followers to take drugs, he also had sex with and killed animals, now based on that alone I cant support him in anyway.

An interesting man he was, an intelligent man he was, but one I want to follow spiritually he’s not.

all the best
faeden

There's only one account of him ever supposedly killing an animal for a sacrifice. It was required of him by the God Ra-Hoor-Khuit when he channelled the Book of the Law but it's not known if he actually went through with it as he was consistantly outspoken against any type of blood/death magic.

The suggestion that he had sex with animals was started by the wife of someone who went to live at his magical retreat in Sicily (The Abbey of Thelema, which was actually a villa, not a shack as someone said earlier in this thread). She became jealous that her husband spent more time dedicating his life to Thelema and the exploration of magic instead of her, so when he died of cholera after drinking water from a nearby pond (despite Crowley's explicit instructions to his followers not to drink from there) she went to the media with a whole host of outrageous unsubstantiated tales. She was later sued for libel by Crowley, unsurprisingly, but the damage had already been done.

Crowley's drug problem started after he was prescribed heroin for his chronic asthma and bronchitis by his doctor. He was aware of the negative effects of the drug and successfully kicked the habit and lived much of his life without the dependency, apart from the very occasional relapse during ill health on the advice of his doctor. As for the other drugs, he did partake hallucinogenic herbs, but no more potent than the magic mushrooms you seem to be able to buy everywhere now.

I'm not advocating Thelema or Crowley's way of life, but since I have so much time on my hands I've done extensive reading on Crowley and it's just kinda annoying when people say things about him that I know aren't true

Hi buffster

I’m willing to accept that Crowley was not as the media portrayed him and I said in my first post on this subject that I apologise to him if what I have written about him is not true.... You know some might think this is weird but sometimes I can look people in the eyes and see things about them and sometimes when I have seen photos of Crowley I have these gut feelings that he’s somewhat in pain and is hurting some how.... I end up feeling sorrow for him I dont know why but its just a feeling I get when seeing his photos.

Now I dont want to annoy you but all the things you said seems to be that you have read things written by people that try and gloss over what Crowley did.... It seems they have looked at all the accusations that have been directed at him and looked for credible reasons and ways for why these claims came about, not looking into the possibility that he did in fact do many or some of the things that where clamed.

Crowley actually regretted much of what he had done just before he died.

Here is something Crowley said not long before he passed over.

"Bury me in a nameless grave/I came from God, the world to save/I brought them wisdom from above/Worship, and liberty, and love/They slew me for I did disparage/Therefore religion, law, and marriage/So be my grave without a name/That earth may swallow up my shame"

Now I have heard the actual recording of him saying this and I have to say once again I sense that feeling of sorrow within his voice I know you could say that he was saying in the above speech that he was saying he tried to bring love and liberty to man and he was slewn for it and that he’s sorry for that? but that’s down to debate..... I actually think that Crowley was not as bad as the media portrayed him I just think he had a bad childhood and because of the anger and sadness he felt because of his childhood he ended up become who he did.

Although I dont like what Crowley did or who he became I dont hate Crowley I hope Crowley is now at peace and has found what ever it was he was looking for whether it be love he never had as a child or just a want to belong I hope Aliester is now happy where ever he is now.

all the best
faeden

Hi guys... still don't have much of an online window... but I'd like to pick up on Faeden's points:

Quote:

and

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True Satanists are followers of satan... the biblical entity.

The guys you're on about... they may call themselves Satanists but they're just devil worshippers... any old demon or djinn would do for them. True Satanism is very much a worship of duality. The "satanists" you have met may call themselves satanists but they're not... trust me ;)

It's like saying you're a marxist because you follow the ideals of communist china... if that makes sense.

I really do encourage you to read SSOTBME by Ramsey Dukes. Dukes can explain the difference a lot better than I can in the time I have at the mo...

Buffster... some good points you have there.

A bit of nostalgia I once read about Crowley:

His father woke up one morning to a parcel ... within was a present of the practitioners cum ... Crowleys point being you gave this for me ... I give it back.

An insight into the, act now, think later, aspect of crowley, and his home relationship.

P.S. Kurt...Faeden .....open a new thread with your disagreements it hurts looking around the forum for them

Faeden wrote, in relation to the man being "evil":

< Crowley did take no end of drugs and encouraged his followers to take drugs >

Hmmmm...better make sure I stop drinking wine. Ooh, and then I'm gonna have to refuse all those cups of coffee everyone keeps offering me wherever I go.

Forgive me for saying so, but remarks like that indicate a huge lack of understanding about a whole host of things. I assume we should denounce just about every tribal culture on earth as a result of such reasoning? Ooh - and what about the 'Old Tradition' you pledge allegiance to? What on earth do you think their use of henbane, datura, mandrake, wormwood, belladonna, etc, was all about?

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Sorry that’s a little naive, drinking alcohol and coffee is a far cry from cocaine and heroin, each to there own yes, but living a life of hard drugs and killing animals is just not something I would want to follow..... If you go back and read my posts properly you will find I am fully aware he was probably made out to be worse than he really was, I would say he was more of a mixed up human being because of his up brining than an evil person.

But its not a rumour that he did most of the above accusations, but he never hid that from anyone either.

As I also said (which your above quote proves) people try and gloss over some of the things he did with weak examples.

Crowley was a genius... but he is also not someone I want to idolise.

All the best
Faeden

< drinking alcohol and coffee is a far cry from cocaine and heroin >

I don't wanna turn G-UK into a place where we debate the issue of drugs, as most people are very ill-informed about the subject. Comparing cocaine & heroin to alcohol is apt: it kills more people per annum than the other two put together. As for the effects on people, perhaps you should refer to groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, etc, who I'm sure would educate you a little.

...But my examples of coffee & alcohol were, if you look again, written wryfully in an attempt to illustrate how naively you used the word 'drugs', along with your inferred condemnation of its users. Poor...very poor...

I have just been enlightened thank god for that.

To all those people out there reading this, these are the following things you should do to be more holy just like Aleister.

1. Do lots of hard drugs (because they are no different than alcoholic ones, just ask alcoholics anonymous, also encourage others in your group to take such drugs and abandon them when they have become a emotional wreak) Alcohol abuse is more common because its socially acceptable.

2. Have sex with goats and slit the goats throat at the point of orgasm.

3. Abandon your wife and child and then blame your wife when the child dies.

4. Cause a young homosexual lover to go insane due to repeated demon summoning in the middle of the desert, and then abandon him when he goes completely insane

5. Join a mountain climbing team, and when your friends get into grave trouble on he mountain ignore there cries for help, and sit in your tent and drink tea while they die on the mountain side.

6. Ignore all rules and laws and do what you want forget everyone else but your self.

As one can see Aleister was a great person to idolise, follow his way because some of his last words where as he lay lonely in his bed sit, a heroin addict, how he had regretted his life and questioned what he had amounted to.

As you can see I was being a little sarcastic. I know Crowley did contribute to modern magical ideas and I understand about what he was trying to do, but his personal teachings are not ones that I want to follow sorry if that offends you. If others want to follow his teachings fair play, I know many that do that are lovely people, but they do not gloss over what he did, and know that some of what he did was just not nice.

I have finished on this now. end of rantings

All the best

Faeden

Ey up Faeden

< I have just been enlightened thank god for that. >

Nice to know! Though think I'll steer clear of the hard drugs and goat-shagging that y' mention!

Brilliant thread. This is one of the most interesting I have read in a long time. xxx